Online relationships

[green]

Online relationships? Whats everyones views on these? I have not had one yet that has worked. I think they could work. I have a webcam and digital camera for photos and videos. I can email and talk on msn. Do you think it just takes two people who want to or are they not the best route.

[AlienMindsInc]

A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online.

Relationships depend heavily on trust, and the internet is an anonymous source with anonymous people. Can you ever really trust a person that you have never met? I, personally cannot, there is a huge part of trust that is attributed to body language and contact. It is always harder, for example, to lie in person than distantly from a little text box on the internet.

However, if the relationship moves on, past the internet and into what I call reality, then there is the possibility. I tried this once, it ended horribly for me, sticking me with a lot of bills and two 40 hour a week obligations. Did it work for me? No. Can it work for someone? Maybe.

The real questions you've got to ask are:
1. Is person A being honest with me?
2. Am I being honest with them?
3. Have I seen all sides to this person?
4. Have I shown all sides of myself?

You may see them as trivial, but they're not. You may also think you're being honest, but really, are you? Do you come home and bitch like you do to other people? Do you argue? Have you ever shown yourself in less than a perfect or harmlessly idle bad mood? Have you ever let your darker side be shown online?

All of these things matter. One of the people I work with just moved in with his girlfriend. Moving day was quite something. She turned into a complete shrew when she has never been anything but kind and "perfect" before. This is the "dark" side I'm talking about. The last question is, "Can you handle their dark side?"

Ciao.
-M

[tempered_sugar]

I think they can work yes. I met Mr P online and over the course of almost a year now (oh my a whole year!) we have gotten to know each other very well. Admittedly at the beginning there was some "colouring" added to what we told each other to jazz it all up, but I think that?s natural and happens in RL as well.

If you talk to someone long enough you do get them in all moods and Mr P had defiantly sampled my many varied and sometimes "dark" sides before we met up. I have never met anyone from online and yes I know took a risk and a gamble. Might seem clich? but I felt I had talked to him enough for any craziness to have come out by then.

Talking to other people online who have tried the same it seems that people find someone the click with and then a month later meet up. Kinda asking for it to go wrong if you ask me. Just feel online should be taken slow and treated with caution for a while as eventually you will catch them on a bad day where their true colours will come through. It is very hard to hide a bad mood even online. Also arguments or problems seem huge online because there is no day to day things putting it in prospective so I think bickering is more likely online.

Me and Mr P have gotten to know each other slowly online, walts and all and now we are going to do the same real time because things are defiantly different in the big world :P We are now dating and are just going to see how things go. So far so good :D

[EnglishGuy]

I have never had a long term relationship that started online. but I can see how TS's comments would work

I have met for casual meetings on the internet a few times and that for the most part as been good.

[Deia]

Honestly, I have never had a D/s relationship of any sort anywhere other than online. It's a part of myself, a part of my life, that I want to keep isolated from what I think of as my "normal" self, my vanilla self. I try to keep them separated whenever possible. And, while it's much more difficult, I find that I've developed some good relationships online. Admittedly, they're somewhat less than they would be IRL, but they are still important to me. One in particular comes to mind, a friend I've been talking to for almost four years now. We are not really in a D/s relationship, it's more that we both switch, even if we prefer subbing, but we're also very good friends. He is the only person I have EVER even considered meeting IRL, and it's because of the rapport we've developed online.
I'm somewhat peculiar in that I don't do webcam or photos. I've lost many a potential master because of that, but I'm pretty firm about it. The guy I mentioned above is the only one who's seen a picture of me, and that was after almost three years of talking. I have some serious insecurities about my looks, and I like meeting people online because they're pretty much forced to get to know me for me, without the barrier of physical appearance.

[green]

Thanks for everyones advice. I will hopefuly find someone then see how it goes :)

[Ricardo]

I had an interesting "friendship" that was pretty exciting for a while, and it was online with some phone calls.

I think you have to keep in mind that there is the possibility for a great deal of unknown details about the other person, though.

[Meander]

I am still in a relationship which started online 5 years ago. We lived together for almost four years until he moved back to California to go back to school with some help from his parents. We are both polyamorous so neither of us really has to go without sex or companionship. To be honest, I would no longer consider him my primary. The person I consider to be my primary is also someone I met online and have lived with for over a year.

I posted a thread about keeping intimacy in a long distance relationship (http://www.kinktalk.com/talk/showthread.php?t=142) which might have some helpful suggestions in it.

[Chloe]

Do you think it just takes two people who want to or are they not the best route.

I think this is the one most common mistake I?ve seen since I started into online D/s. A lot of people still seem to think that all doms are pretty much alike, same for subs & that it should be enough for 2 people to be compatible. This is so far from the truth even with the best intentions. I have talked with many male doms & I can say that they were all very different be it in their personalities, interests, expectations, methods & degree of ?seriousness?. I don?t know as many subs but still I?m very different from the ones I know so I guess same goes for us :)

For example I must admit that it always makes me smile when I hear people say it?s easier for girls to find someone suitable as they will inevitably receive more response. The truth in this situation is: not really? It all depends what that female poster is looking for. Finding a person is no problem for most girls; finding a good one is what is harder. I know it wasn?t really the point of the original post or even mentioned previously in that thread by other posters but since the subject is more general I thought I?d bring this point as I still read comments like these on different forums & I find it a tiny bit na?ve to think so :)


It is very hard to hide a bad mood even online.

It?s very true, at least after some time. I think that in a relationship where both parties are being interested & observant of how the other one feel sometimes it?s surprising how you can even guess on how they?re doing ?at the moment?. Online is definitely a very different dynamic than RL. But yet it?s surprisingly amazing how some little details can say a lot sometimes. One example is something my Master noticed while chatting with me. If I?m sad or nervous or just not having a good day I tend to take a bit more time to reply as if I?m in a good mood I kinda ?fire back? right after I get a message. It?s only a few seconds delay most of the times & I believe that this would maybe even go unnoticed in RL as my mood would show in other ways. Like I said I think it?s all about being observant &genuinely interested.

So how easy it is to find someone & have a positive relationship really depends on what a person expects in the 1st place. And yeah patience is very important both while searching a partner as well as once you?ve met that person. It?s not easy & it requires some time & effort just as much as RL to make it work but yes, it is possible :)

[AlienMindsInc]

I disagree with the bad mood showing. A careful person can hide their moods very well.

Often people project what they think the other person is like in their minds, and then when they get online they "confirm" it via small things like "it took longer to respond," etc.

Most of the time people think they've insulted me or that I'm offended by things because my replies are usually blunt and to the point. In reality, I could usually care less, like my first post that sugar replied to about toilet play, followed by my clarification. I'm not saying there aren't things to give away my moods online, but it is generally a lot harder than you think. Especially in serious discourse through IM. I always try to detach myself so arguments don't get a rise out of me. (Another example would be an argument with a Moderator on another forum that thinks I'm angry and insulting him, and is getting uppity based on the fact that he thinks I'm being uppity with him-- when all I did was ask why after four years he suddenly needs me to change my profile, I didn't even say no, I just changed it and asked-- even though he denied the change.)

What it really comes down to is your own insecurity with the person you're talking to, how well you think you know them, and how easy it is to make you feel guilty/in the wrong. It is much easier to hide a bad mood when people are projecting what they think you're feeling, or how they think you'll react.

I'll probably have more examples in a few weeks since I recently agreed to continue a relationship (using the term loosely) with a friend I met a few years ago. He had to move, and has since "fallen in love" with the idea of being my slave. Since I trust him to do everything, I'm willing to give him one shot, if he betrays it, then it's done.

-M

[Joker]

I was in a long distance relationship for about a year and the one thing I can tell you is that trust is the most important thing. Me and this girl started out just being friends/cyber buddies and then we started dating online. It went good for the longest time but she eventually got to the point were she didnt trust me because she was under the impression that I had 20,000 girlfriends. And needless to say it was a downward spiral from there. It seemed no matter how much trust I had in her, she never had that same trust in me.

I have heard some success stories but as fate would have it for me it didnt work out :/

[aika]

Internet friendships are brilliant, internet relationships are a lot harder.

[tempered_sugar]

All I can say is I honestly think it depends on the two people. If someone wants to trick you and lie, they will but you have to be a very good liar to not trip up at some point. Little things like how old they were when they did a certain things is normally an easy thing to catch em out on. I have been talking for a quite a few years online and hoenstly if you talk for long enough you can always catch someone out on something.

If you both want it to work as friends then it will. There are a lot of weirdos out there I know and I have just been lucky that I have found someone I genuinlly click with. You honestly do get a gut feeling if someone is haveing you on or not and in those cases its best to keep your distance and not give up too much information bout yourself just in case.

If its just online then maybe not the best idea to take it further, but if you have spoken on the phone etc then you can get a better idea of someone. You can hear their tone etc which eliminates the taking things the wrong way part. Its also alot easier to tell someones mood etc. And to be honest if i never bickered or argued or got someone on a bad day that I was talking to onlie I would be slightly suspicious to begin with, who never has a bad day?:)

You don't have to be a synical sausage all the time, some people do tell you the truth and it really can work online. I know someone who married the girl he met online 3 years ago and is still blissfully happy :D

[green]

I didnt think this thread would grab much attention. :) great to see it has :)

[Merlin]

I disagree with the bad mood showing. A careful person can hide their moods very well.You are right a careful person can hide their feelings very well for some time ... but believe me after some time you will show them (online or offline). Especially to people who know you . I can hide my feelings without a problem to people who don't know me... and of course this is even easier online than offline. But people that really know me will see these little changes i show if it is online or offline. My real friends (i have 3) can tell what i think although noone around me will see any change in my behaviour, why? Because the changes are so minimal that people that don't know me very well will not see them, and they are not controlable by myself. In some way the same can be said for online relations. You may think you can hide your feelings from people, and you are even right with it in 99% of the cases, but someone you write over messanger every day for around 5 hours per day for 6 months not only to give orders but about all you are thinking and feeling you will see little differences ... in things like time you need to answer, writing speed or the words you use (Yeah, Yes, Ok, Right)... plus we are talking about 2 people that don't want to lie to the other one...
I may have to add another thing here, for some people this is easier than for others, because they tend to look for these little details. And are also very good in reading people offline... so they may have also less problems online than people that don't look for this small changes and/or like you said are only seeing it from their point of view. So online and offline some people will be better in in than others. It really depends on how empathic they are.
Also all your examples are about people that don't know you ... so you cant really compare them with the things chlo? was talking about...

[Chloe]

I think one thing that has to be clear & understood is that online relationships isn?t necessarily for everyone. The dynamic is very different & it takes just as much effort as any other types of relationships. I?m afraid that, again, I will repeat myself by saying that each & everyone has different needs, expectations, past experiences, etc. that makes them seek different things? And I?m still stunned when I see people not recognizing that fact. Which is why I?ll never buy generalized statements such as ?A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online?? AlienMinds, you said yourself:

Can you ever really trust a person that you have never met? I, personally cannot?

Wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that a relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online? for you? I hope you don?t take it as a knock on you because I do agree partially with some other parts of your posts but please bear in mind that everyone is not like you.

I disagree with the bad mood showing. A careful person can hide their moods very well.

Often people project what they think the other person is like in their minds, and then when they get online they "confirm" it via small things like "it took longer to respond," etc.

Again, this another point where you must understand that these things will be perceived differently depending on your personality, your attitude & how much you honestly want the relationship to work. This was only one example. And, yes, trust me, my Master has seen lots of my ?dark side? much to a point that a lot of others would have ran away from me. I?m fully aware that a lot of people are not fully honest or hide some parts of themselves? Not everyone though & after some time it gets harder to hide these anyway. And for those who seek something more casual maybe it doesn?t even matter. As for more ?serious? relationships it all depends on how genuine & committed the persons involved are. And as I mentioned in my previous post, one has to be very observant & not everyone has that quality in them. So it all comes down to what I said in the beginning that personality & expectations are important factors just as much as trust & honesty.

[rumen]

I am not a believer in the online relationships. Internet is good at handling chatting or virtual meetings and so on, but in my opinion, the personal experience must be real.
However, it is true that some lucky guys/gals have met their partner online. It's just a different experience for everybody.

[AlienMindsInc]

Wow, I never saw this response, I'm sorry for the late response, Chloe.

As far as online relationships being only a friendship to me.... No. They cannot. Friendship requires trust, trust requires intimate knowledge of the other person. That requires a real life component to the relationship. I'm sorry, Chloe, but to use you as an example for this, if you were to message me every day for the next 20 years, you'd still only be 13 characters in my inbox. Although, I'm certain, if it was such an extreme amount of time I'd have built some amount of trust, but without actually meeting, the only thing for 100% certain I'd know is that when I met you you were not an 80 year old creepy stalker person. Maybe I'm just a cynical bastard, but I believe all people are liars and thieves waiting to strike and hurt you the best they can. This doesn't mean they can't be nice, friendly, or kind, but they are predisposed to pain and suffering and causing pain and suffering.

To continue this point, even though it is very extreme, if you and I were to have an encounter somewhere, you suddenly became real and earned about 12 years worth of the trust that was building. When things become real, in my experience, they become accelerated due to online interaction, if the online interaction was not immediately proved to be full of false pretenses and lies.


Anyway I've strayed from my topic. I still believe that online relationships without a real component cannot work. There must be a real component or the relationship is as weak as dust in a hurricane. If your needs are satisfied by a little white square with black text, there is a serious problem, and you need serious psychiatric attention.

Next, I'm not saying that personality and expectations are unimportant, I'm saying they are secondary to trust and honesty, in all relationships. The reason people have more than one relationship of any type is because it is not apparent for a few months what the other person wants out of the relationship. The relationship is a means to get that information and understand the person, but it won't work without trust and honesty between you. I'm not saying little white lies, lies of omission, or anything like that are the ending circumstances of a relationship. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes necessary, sometimes they are huge problems. The determining factor is what the other person thinks they are, and if they forgive you.

Finally, back to the "well hidden moods." It is not impossible, or even hard to maintain hidden moods. Maybe I have too much experience, but the simple way to do it is adopt a writing style for each type of encounter. I have never, personally, been able to break myself of that. I naturally step back when I get angry, look at the situation, think about it, and reply in an appropriate tone. There are several default cases, criticism of me, curiosity, cold logic.. etc. Often people mistake the tones for things they expect to hear. When I get into "philosophy" mode people think I'm angry because it is a mixture of curiosity and cold logic. They misunderstand it as "Oh God, he's pissed" and treat it according to how guilty they feel, or how angry they are. To catch someone's proper mood you must know them well enough to know how they react to things, and you must understand what they feel about what you said. Without meeting in person, I find this to be the most difficult part, and because it is the most difficult part, it is the part that has the most problems/errors associated with it.

I'd love to continue rambling, but I've got to get to work. I'll wait for another reply.

Ciao.

[tempered_sugar]

All I can say is that not everyone is out to lie and decieve you online. What doesn't work for you will work for someone else, talking to someone online is no different to an old fashioned pen pall and meeting someone online to me is no different to randomly meeting someone in a bar, you are running very similar risks. Just because someone is infront of you doesn't mean they can't lie and pretend to be something they are not. Sometimes you can't tell what is truth if you don't know someone very well, you don't always get the gut feeling that they aren't telling the truth online or real life.

I just don't like generalisation and if someone is happy with an online relationship whether its friendship or more then does it matter that it isn't socialy acceptable and considered "normal" to alot of people?

[AlienMindsInc]

See, but now you're putting words in my mouth.

It is my belief that if there is no real interaction there can be no real relationship. I have made that abundantly clear by now, I believe.

This doesn't mean that YOU have to agree with me. It doesn't mean it is true in ALL cases. However, in ALL of my experiences, and most of the stories I've heard, Prince Charming drops off the face of the earth without so much as an emoticon, or real life happens and the relationship is a complete flop. The statistics from my view, and my experiences tell me that the vast majority of online relationships fail.

This line: "A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online. " from my original post is EXACTLY as it says it is. It isn't a generalization, it is a fact. The key word you've been missing this entire time is ONLY. As in there is no real life interaction, no face to face moments. You cannot get married online, and you cannot have children online. (Roleplay doesn't count.) The reason is because biology cannot work through a wire alone. (Why would you even WANT such a thing to be able to happen?) No country will ever recognize a marriage where the participants have not met, ever; especially not if they aren't face to face at the wedding. Boyfriend-girlfriend, etc, relationships MUST have a real life component or you're just kidding each other.

You may feel free to disagree, but at this point, you must realize that my "generalization" is something I will never concede, so I will agree to disagree with you, and leave it at that.

[Chloe]

@ AlienMindsInc: I really find it funny that most of your arguments to prove that since an online relationship can?t work for you then it can?t for the rest of the world contains expressions such as ?Personally?, ?to me?, ?I believe?, etc. What I find much less funny is that in 2 of your posts you use me or some things I?ve posted in this thread without even knowing me, my past experiences & current relationship. I would greatly appreciate that if you want to convince me, at least, that you stick to stuff you really know for a fact in order to prove that YOUR truth is THE truth. Otherwise your arguments are just a big balloon of hot air to me?

I still believe that online relationships without a real component cannot work.

Of course there?s a need for a real component. The only thing is what?s a real component to one will not be for someone else or will manifest in different ways. Face-to-face may be essential to you. It?s not to me. End of.

Next, I'm not saying that personality and expectations are unimportant, I'm saying they are secondary to trust and honesty, in all relationships.

All I can say is? wow! Do you really believe that everyone are the same?? What makes you think you know better than eveyone what comes first & what is secondary in ALL relationships?

When I say that expectations are just as important to me here?s an example of what I mean: When I first started seeking online I knew already that I was looking for something that transcend the sexual aspect of D/s. To me, meeting online 2-3 times a week just for play just doesn?t cut it. I does absolutely nothing for me. But there are a large number of people who wants it that way & that?s fine. I meant that it is important to seek someone who has similar expectations & to make them clear from the start when you meet with another person otherwise it?s a waste of time for both parties. And as far personality go I was talking about compatibilty & shared interests & goals. Somehow I have this funny idea that being compatible & having common interests & goals can help make a relationship work & puts these things in my priorities. Need I repeat again that people can be different from one another?

. If your needs are satisfied by a little white square with black text, there is a serious problem, and you need serious psychiatric attention.

Maybe I'm just a cynical bastard, but I believe all people are liars and thieves waiting to strike and hurt you the best they can.

I dunno who needs more professional attention here?

No but seriously I find this first statement absurd & utterly judgmental & disrespectful. And once again made out of no valid information about me?

So once again, please, try to keep in mind that your beliefs & opinions are nothing but that. I have no problem with anyone saying that online relationships are difficult to be taken seriously or superficial in most cases because it?s true, I do however have a HUGE problem with closed-mindedness, generalized statements & judgmental opinions no matter what the subject is.

[Merlin]

A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online.You sound like this is something negative? what is the biggest difference between a relationship and a friendship in the end? Sex... So yes you are right you cant have sex over the internet ...

Relationships depend heavily on trust, and the internet is an anonymous source with anonymous people. Can you ever really trust a person that you have never met? I, personally cannot, there is a huge part of trust that is attributed to body language and contact. It is always harder, for example, to lie in person than distantly from a little text box on the internet.Again, you are right you can lie over the internet and many people will lie. But what makes you think people wont lie if you sit in front of them? People lie as often sitting in front of you as they will lie on the internet. Yes it is a bit easier on the net but on the other hand most people are aware of that and wont take every word serious. What have we learned by this? That the internet has the same Problem as the real world... you will meet people that will lie. If this is a reason why relationships in the internet wont work then i could also say relationships in the real world wont work. And my personal experience is that 80% of the "real" relationships are also not working or are build on lies ... cant really see a big difference here...

However, if the relationship moves on, past the internet and into what I call reality, then there is the possibility. I tried this once, it ended horribly for me, sticking me with a lot of bills and two 40 hour a week obligations. Did it work for me? No. Can it work for someone? Maybe.Ok i feel really sorry for you that you made a bad experience with it. And i am really the last one that will say this wont happen again. Still saying that because of your bad experience all internet relationships are build of lies is just not right. Again there are million of people that also got bad experience with real relationships (hey including myself) is this a proof that relationships cant work in general?

The real questions you've got to ask are:
1. Is person A being honest with me?
2. Am I being honest with them?
3. Have I seen all sides to this person?
4. Have I shown all sides of myself?100% agreed! But what has this to to with online or not? the same applies for all relationships...

[...]Do you come home and bitch like you do to other people? Do you argue? Have you ever shown yourself in less than a perfect or harmlessly idle bad mood? Have you ever let your darker side be shown online?Yes to all questions...

All of these things matter. One of the people I work with just moved in with his girlfriend. Moving day was quite something. She turned into a complete shrew when she has never been anything but kind and "perfect" before. This is the "dark" side I'm talking about. The last question is, "Can you handle their dark side?" Again very good point... But i don't see where this has anything to do with online or not...

I disagree with the bad mood showing. A careful person can hide their moods very well.I can hide my feelings also to some person that is sitting in front of me, i even know that i am really good in it but again i don't see that this has something to do with online or not... although it may be a bit easier online have to agree there. Still to think it is so much harder in reality is naive...

Often people project what they think the other person is like in their minds, and then when they get online they "confirm" it via small things like "it took longer to respond," etc.Yes a big problem is that many people often project their own feelings on others. And although i always try to see things out of the eyes of the other person too this can happen... But again what has this to do with the internet... The exact same problem applies for people that are sitting in front of you...
[...], you'd still only be 13 characters in my inbox.Maybe that is the problem as you are not able to see a person behind these letters in your inbox...
Although, I'm certain, if it was such an extreme amount of time I'd have built some amount of trust, but without actually meeting, the only thing for 100% certain I'd know is that when I met you you were not an 80 year old creepy stalker person.The only info you can be sure about after meeting is the look of the other person... Thats it. He can go on to lie to you about everything else... And if this is sooo important for you there are also ways to confim that the person is looking like he/she is saying...
Maybe I'm just a cynical bastard, but I believe all people are liars and thieves waiting to strike and hurt you the best they can. This doesn't mean they can't be nice, friendly, or kind, but they are predisposed to pain and suffering and causing pain and suffering.These people are out there, but they will also hit you while sitting in front of you and if you really believe you would be able to see through every lie only because you are sitting in front of a person would just make you a good target for them... And if your theory is right then you also say you are someone that will lie and do anything to get what you want... Sorry but this sound like a person that is saying the world is bad and every one is against me and that is the reason why i can be an asshole... a cheap excuse that way to many people use if you ask me...

[...]If your needs are satisfied by a little white square with black text, there is a serious problem, and you need serious psychiatric attention.This is almost like saying a book is only some Letters written on a piece of paper, or a picture is just paint on a piece of fabric...

Next, I'm not saying that personality and expectations are unimportant, I'm saying they are secondary to trust and honesty, in all relationships. The reason people have more than one relationship of any type is because it is not apparent for a few months what the other person wants out of the relationship. The relationship is a means to get that information and understand the person, but it won't work without trust and honesty between you. I'm not saying little white lies, lies of omission, or anything like that are the ending circumstances of a relationship. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes necessary, sometimes they are huge problems. The determining factor is what the other person thinks they are, and if they forgive you.Again applies to online and offline relationships in the exact same way..

Finally, back to the "well hidden moods." It is not impossible, or even hard to maintain hidden moods. Maybe I have too much experience, but the simple way to do it is adopt a writing style for each type of encounter. I have never, personally, been able to break myself of that. I naturally step back when I get angry, look at the situation, think about it, and reply in an appropriate tone. There are several default cases, criticism of me, curiosity, cold logic.. etc. Often people mistake the tones for things they expect to hear. When I get into "philosophy" mode people think I'm angry because it is a mixture of curiosity and cold logic. They misunderstand it as "Oh God, he's pissed" and treat it according to how guilty they feel, or how angry they are. To catch someone's proper mood you must know them well enough to know how they react to things, and you must understand what they feel about what you said. Without meeting in person, I find this to be the most difficult part, and because it is the most difficult part, it is the part that has the most problems/errors associated with it.Again you make this sound as if it is hard to hide your feelings in reality or that people never misinterpret something... The amount of people were i have to actively hide my feelings to not show them is very small. I even tend to show more feeling on the net than i would ever do in real live :)

[...]The statistics from my view, and my experiences tell me that the vast majority of online relationships fail.From my view the majority of real live relationships fail to ... or go on in a way that is often worse than failing...

[...] no face to face moments. webcams...
You cannot get married online, and you cannot have children online.Ok yes that is right and the first thing were i totally agree with you in all points. And i think almost no one will want to have a baby over the net :) But if marriage and getting bays is a sign of a relationship then i can show you lot real relations that would also fail...

What i want to add here is that of course you are right in one point... a online relationship is limited and is lacking some things, but to say it is impossible because of this is simply wrong... It is just different...

[tempered_sugar]

See, but now you're putting words in my mouth.

It is my belief that if there is no real interaction there can be no real relationship. I have made that abundantly clear by now, I believe.

Yeah you made yourself clear and no not putting words in your mouth but expressing my personal views and opinions just as you have. I didn't quote you in my reply so was not refering to anyones post in perticular just adressing the fact a few think that people lie all the time on the internet.

And I in the process was defending a friend who shock horror I only know online :D I have a few online friends none of whome come before my real time ones but I still consider myself to have friendships with them, maybe its just a select few who take the time like this and build a relationship to thinking of the other person as more than a screen. A couple of the friends online I talk about the Dom/sub side of our lives because its very difficult to turn round to my best friend in rl and say, hey I'm having problems with my submissive side. I also hate the term online and real life, it makes it sound like they don't even exist unless they are infront of a screen but thats another subject. With one online friend in particular we have both helped each other out recently and for someone to turn around and say she is only words on a screen is insulting to me and her and the relationship we do have. (You can give examples without mentioning names which just starts to get personal and rude.)

It also insults the relationship I have with my bf who I met online and after 5 months we met up. In that time he pulled me out of a massive black hole of depression helped me make up my mind and have the guts to get rid of an abusive bf as well as talk about my mums death something I hadn't done in a long time. This was all done online and I have nothing but respect for him and gratitude for how much he helped me. I am just so lucky we were able to take it into real time and make a go of it. Some aren't so lucky for verious reasons. And before anyone tries to say it I wasn't desperate and just reaching out for anyone who would listen, there are plenty who would listen online he just so happened to be a special someone that come along once in a while and I just so happened to meet him online. If the trust hadn't been built online there would have been no way I would have met him or that I'd bloody well let him hogtie me the other day.

The foundations of our relationship were built online and I am not ashamed of that or think we would be any closer if it had been done real time. I don't think I could have been so open with him and discussed things I found hard to even think about if it hadn't been for online. It worked for us and will work for others and yeah I know for some it leads to problems etc but not all! Not everyone on the internet is a pervert and not everyone just wants to meet up for a quick fu**.

It takes common sense and time, if you jump into the arms of the first person who comes along online you are asking for trouble but if you take the time have patients and are both honest, which you can find out quite easily if you have some intelligence then it can work. Most people I know online who have relationships in any form where not looking for it but just kind of came accross it.

Vive La Online Relationships! :D

I think it says a fair bit about society too that some feel they can't explore Dom/sub for example real time or because like me I can't discuss it with my best friend and so find a way to do that with someone else, I am judged alot less quickly by the people I talk about BDSM online with because normally they are into similar things, I am just as selective with who I talk to online as I am real time. Again I say it takes common sense just to find the people who are worth your time online.

[sum1]

This line: "A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online. " from my original post is EXACTLY as it says it is. It isn't a generalization, it is a fact.

It is not a fact. It is, at best, just a valued judgement.

You seem to think because you've had some bad experiences that everyone lies online, and no one does in person. I'll let you in on a secrete here, the people you meet online are also people out in the real world.

I don't understand how you think someone could maintain any lie about themselves if you talk with them long enough. Like Merlin said about the words in a book, it becomes more than just "13 characters" in an inbox.
It's simply about communication, and continuing to talk, to chat about idle things.

[AlienMindsInc]

sugar,

I would like you to close your heart, forget that you have a relationship that started online, ignore the tone you THINK I put into my posts, and reread them all as words on paper. The insult you're finding in my words isn't there, and anyone that finds it is trying to assume that I'm getting angry over a silly argument.

I don't have a lot of time to reply, but I will once I get home from work if it is still needed to clarify everything I've said.

And I only used you once as an example, and it didn't require knowing anything about you because I made up a stupid extreme case situation where your 13 characters were a place holder for anyone. I could have just as simply said John Paul II or Adolf Hitler. I chose you mainly because you were the person I was talking to, and you're reading it.

The entire argument here is that I am saying that I believe online relationships that are MORE than a simple friendship cannot work without getting a real component. That means if you NEVER, in the history of the universe, meet then you cannot say you have a boyfriend/girlfriend/lover/husband/wife/etc. I say this because all of those relationships are more than "you're cool, let's talk" relationships. It is also harder for you to hide things in person than online. MUCH harder. It is easier for you to reference logs to perpetuate a lie, if you're trying to, than it is to remember if you said you had two dogs or three yesterday to a person you met at the bar. Online you can say "I'm black" and be asian, you can't exactly do that in person. Just as an example of what I mean.

What I say as truth, is truth if you consider the definitions of the words.-- about ONLINE relationships only. Boyfriend/girlfriend might be interpreted as being able to exist without meeting, but Mate/Lover/Husband/Wife.... those are more than friendship and cannot exist without physical contact. The connotations of that statement might not be true to you and are up for debate, I guess, but I fail to see where the words lie. If you could point that out, I'd be grateful.


"I just don't like generalisation and if someone is happy with an online relationship whether its friendship or more then does it matter that it isn't socialy acceptable and considered "normal" to alot of people?" and this is exactly where you put the words in my mouth. I didn't say it isn't socially acceptable or abnormal. I said it wouldn't work as more than friendship, and if it does, I'm happy to be proven wrong.

Finally,
Merlin: I can't say as I disagree with you on any of your points. We agree pretty much completely. Everything I listed were traits of a real relationship that you don't often get online. They're also easy things to hide online.

No- it's not a bad thing. It's just as valid of a friendship as any other way of meeting. But ONLY a friendship.

I'd like you all to forget my experiences, since I cannot apparently use them without you thinking that you should feel sorry for me. I will make up examples in the future to avoid confusion. I am not basing everything on one experience. I am also not saying all online relationships are built on lies. Putting words in my mouth, again. I'm saying people lie. I'm saying people deceive. All people do it. Some do it more than others.

You're right, the problem is inability to see the person behind the IM/email. The inability to see everything about them and know them more intimately.

Finally,
"What i want to add here is that of course you are right in one point... a online relationship is limited and is lacking some things, but to say it is impossible because of this is simply wrong... It is just different..." Is the only thing I really disagree with. I'm not saying it's impossible, I'm saying a meaningful relationship with the "I love you, let's marry" stuff can't happen without more intimate knowledge of the other person. The kind of knowledge that only comes from direct contact. Webcams aren't face to face. They're face to wire to face. You lose stuff. You lose tactile senses to the computer.

[sum1]

I guess it depends on how you define what makes up a relationship. If it's about an emotional and spiritual contact (which you can get through online contact alone) or if it's just about sex (which you cannot)

[tempered_sugar]

As it is purly "words on paper" I did not read past the first paragraph of your post, your words mean nothing to me as I don't know you real life:)

[AlienMindsInc]

I think the word relationship is where everyone is getting hung up.

Relationships are of two varieties:

1. Love-> This one comes with sex, marriage, mateship, courtship, and everything that happens in between.
2. Friendship-> I know the person, and they know me. We like each other.

2 can happen any time, over any medium, for any reason.

1 takes real human contact. It can't be done through a wire. Parts of it can be, but the whole relationship cannot evolve without human contact. It can get to a certain point but no further.

sugar,

I'm happy you just agree to disagree.

[sum1]

Love does not, for many people, have to have sex in it. It can exist outside of this. I understand, that for some, sex is a thing that they cannot see past.


By the way, apparently tempered_sugar forgot to close her sarcasm tag on her previous post. :)

[AlienMindsInc]

Either you're purposefully missing the point to bait me into more argument, or you're getting hung up on the words without understanding them.

This is going to be my last attempt to qualify my statements because I'm sick of preaching to the choir.

Type 2 involves everything 2 does in the last post and is exactly the same. We both agree on this.

Type 1 is the type that involves love, marriage, sex, courtship/dating, long winter nights in front of the fire, that dreamy look she gets when you give her that special treat and tell her you love her. It's that walk on the beach, that full connection that you have when you're separated by thousands of miles you see her smile in everything. Finally, when you die, she goes into such grief that not long after, she's gone too.

That deep connection is what I am saying cannot exist solely online. That very thing that goes deep into the core of your being. The very essence of life in a relationship. Upon first real meeting those things can become real. Not before. Before the first real meeting, you can do some of that stuff. If you're really hardcore you can date online, "fall in love" online, and cyber. It's the real meeting that sets the rest in motion.

And I fully understand Sugar's last comment. She was baiting me, but I'm not going to argue it any more. I said I'd live and let live before, I only replied to her yesterday because of the story about her relationship and the sudden realization that she was insulted because she thought I was telling her her relationship has no value. I wasn't. Actually, I was saying that hers is one of the few that worked because it went real.

[sum1]

I agree with your current argument. The argument you were making a couple of days ago read as though you were trying to say that not even friendship could work online because everybody online lies, all the time.


twas probably a misplaced comma that caused all this. The argument i think you thought you made was not the arugment you were making. No one was putting words in your mouth, just taking the ones you had on the page.

[Strawberry]

Wow, I never saw this response, I'm sorry for the late response, Chloe.

As far as online relationships being only a friendship to me.... No. They cannot. Friendship requires trust, trust requires intimate knowledge of the other person. That requires a real life component to the relationship. I'm sorry, Chloe, but to use you as an example for this, if you were to message me every day for the next 20 years, you'd still only be 13 characters in my inbox. Although, I'm certain, if it was such an extreme amount of time I'd have built some amount of trust, but without actually meeting, the only thing for 100% certain I'd know is that when I met you you were not an 80 year old creepy stalker person. Maybe I'm just a cynical bastard, but I believe all people are liars and thieves waiting to strike and hurt you the best they can. This doesn't mean they can't be nice, friendly, or kind, but they are predisposed to pain and suffering and causing pain and suffering.

To continue this point, even though it is very extreme, if you and I were to have an encounter somewhere, you suddenly became real and earned about 12 years worth of the trust that was building. When things become real, in my experience, they become accelerated due to online interaction, if the online interaction was not immediately proved to be full of false pretenses and lies.


Anyway I've strayed from my topic. I still believe that online relationships without a real component cannot work. There must be a real component or the relationship is as weak as dust in a hurricane. If your needs are satisfied by a little white square with black text, there is a serious problem, and you need serious psychiatric attention.

Next, I'm not saying that personality and expectations are unimportant, I'm saying they are secondary to trust and honesty, in all relationships. The reason people have more than one relationship of any type is because it is not apparent for a few months what the other person wants out of the relationship. The relationship is a means to get that information and understand the person, but it won't work without trust and honesty between you. I'm not saying little white lies, lies of omission, or anything like that are the ending circumstances of a relationship. Sometimes they are useful, sometimes necessary, sometimes they are huge problems. The determining factor is what the other person thinks they are, and if they forgive you.

Finally, back to the "well hidden moods." It is not impossible, or even hard to maintain hidden moods. Maybe I have too much experience, but the simple way to do it is adopt a writing style for each type of encounter. I have never, personally, been able to break myself of that. I naturally step back when I get angry, look at the situation, think about it, and reply in an appropriate tone. There are several default cases, criticism of me, curiosity, cold logic.. etc. Often people mistake the tones for things they expect to hear. When I get into "philosophy" mode people think I'm angry because it is a mixture of curiosity and cold logic. They misunderstand it as "Oh God, he's pissed" and treat it according to how guilty they feel, or how angry they are. To catch someone's proper mood you must know them well enough to know how they react to things, and you must understand what they feel about what you said. Without meeting in person, I find this to be the most difficult part, and because it is the most difficult part, it is the part that has the most problems/errors associated with it.

I'd love to continue rambling, but I've got to get to work. I'll wait for another reply.

Ciao.

This is all still how it is for you. For others its different. As Chloe said, Online isn't for everyone. but others are more observant.
I met my One online too btw. We waited a year before meeting in person. everything is great now.

So don't speak as if what you say is fact. because it isn't. The internet has come to stay, and so has online relationships. For some people, online relationship are vital because of lack of time to go out and search in real life(work, children, blah blah.)

It bugs me when people present their own opinions as fact. Sorry.

The only thing I'd like to see as fact, is that it's needed to be open. To everything. Because if you're stuck on your own opinions without listening to others, you're just slowing yourself in the evolution.

It's a good thing to listen and learn from others, and sort bullshit from helpful advice and stuff.

So please be open :) Its true that online is difficult an takes alot of trust. but sometimes.... You just know. And then you know the person you're talking to is sincere. It happned with me. mainly because I got to observe the one a few years before we got together ^^ (we were on the same game forum).

Yup. Strange things happen, but remember to sort opinions from fact, and be open and learn.

[AlienMindsInc]

I am completely closed to online romantic relationships for myself.

I'm not devaluing your relationship. I'm saying it worked because it went to real life.

That is what this entire argument has been from my side. If there is no real life component, the romantic online relationship will crumble. I can't be any clearer than that. If you still don't understand, or disagree with me, we have to agree to disagree and let it drop. Repeating myself over and over in different ways is getting boring and annoying.

[shinningstar]

Online relationship for me is exciting and full of challenge. I'm a simple woman who believes that distance is not a hindrance of love because we have high tech gadgets for communication nowadays. I don't really mind if I've got relationship online as long as he makes me cum in his own ways.

[Strawberry]

I am completely closed to online romantic relationships for myself.

I'm not devaluing your relationship. I'm saying it worked because it went to real life.

That is what this entire argument has been from my side. If there is no real life component, the romantic online relationship will crumble. I can't be any clearer than that. If you still don't understand, or disagree with me, we have to agree to disagree and let it drop. Repeating myself over and over in different ways is getting boring and annoying.

Yea of course it would crumble if you dont see each other eventually, unless we're talking about extremely patient people, or people who never intended on bringing it further anyway. But don't come and tell me that it's what you meant all along. You've been devaluing online relationships in all your posts and also said that people who get satisfied by pixels need professional help. That was really judgmental you know.

Of course it depends on the kind of relationship if a real life component is needed or not. Some only use online for webcam play which also is a relationship. Others use it for love.
And for your information, it's not just 13 pixels on a screen. When you love the person, you cherish every word they say, in this case what they write. And then again theres phone and webcam too.
I could have waited an eternity to meet up with my love cos I love him with all my heart. The day I realized I love him... Not one feeling has changed since then. It wasn't just friendship. Friendship don't make you flutter and want to kiss and hug the person continuously. They don't make you want to make the person happy forever.
But I was struck with really strong feelings that have remained strong since then. Not much has changed. I feel the same, only know I know what he smells like in real life. That's all that changed, and also that I could have sex with him and hug him and do physical stuff.

But then again. I can still wait an eternity for him. Nomatter how painful it is.
he is the One for me, and I'm never going to look at another guy and feel the same. Ever. That's why, even though it's hard, I have the patience to wait for him forever. I don't need real life to keep the relationship up. Even though it's painful. Our relationship will never end, despite what so many people say out of own experience. I'm on of the few lucky ones that will stay in the relationship, cos our relationship is based on everything but superficiality. There is trust. Lots of trust. And lots of communication. We talk about everything is there's a problem.
So there. Relationships can work everywhere.

As I said, be openhearted and openminded. What you see as fact might not necessarily be so. a few days ago, I thought cows ate pancakes because i had been lied to when I was little <.<(to keep me from bugging them about the pancakes they were making). Was only recently told it was a lie. B ut yea. <.< let's not talk about that.

Anyway I hope you learn from this, and realize that relationships are different from person to person. For some one trait is vital, for other it wouldn't matter at all.

[AlienMindsInc]

Yes, I have learned something. What I have learned is that everyone on here seems to have started an online relationship that went to real life. I've also learned that everyone who has done such doesn't read posts they perceive to be insulting, and hence makes me repeat myself.

If you feel insulted by my posts, do what I said for tempered_sugar. Quit feeling insulted and read the posts. Close every bit of yourself off and read them as a detached person. If you still find insult, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended. I, however, still find no insult.

I haven't said anything different the entire way though since my first post. I may have phrased it differently for clarification, given examples, or repeated it 40 or so times, but my end message is the same as my beginning message. That message has always been an online exclusive relationship with no real component will not work unless it is a simple friendship. Eventually it must crumble, and you agree with me as per your last post.

As far as me being judgmental, yes, I am. So are you, so is sugar, chloe, merlin, John Paul II, Leo X, Stalin, Bill and Ted, Clinton, Obama, McCain, my dog Max, the entire country of Italy, and all of Africa. Everyone is judgmental, everyone evaluates things on their own standards and morals. I believe that if there are two people that can have an entire life online without ever meeting that they do need help, (I'm talking about the extreme case where you married the person online and grew old online together, but never actually met.... 60 year relationship online exclusively type of deal) or at bare minimum to meet each other once. You believe I'm closed minded, and a jerk. Don't you think that's judgmental given that you don't know anything about me?

[Strawberry]

Yes, I have learned something. What I have learned is that everyone on here seems to have started an online relationship that went to real life. I've also learned that everyone who has done such doesn't read posts they perceive to be insulting, and hence makes me repeat myself.

If you feel insulted by my posts, do what I said for tempered_sugar. Quit feeling insulted and read the posts. Close every bit of yourself off and read them as a detached person. If you still find insult, I'm sorry, it wasn't intended. I, however, still find no insult.

I haven't said anything different the entire way though since my first post. I may have phrased it differently for clarification, given examples, or repeated it 40 or so times, but my end message is the same as my beginning message. That message has always been an online exclusive relationship with no real component will not work unless it is a simple friendship. Eventually it must crumble, and you agree with me as per your last post.

As far as me being judgmental, yes, I am. So are you, so is sugar, chloe, merlin, John Paul II, Leo X, Stalin, Bill and Ted, Clinton, Obama, McCain, my dog Max, the entire country of Italy, and all of Africa. Everyone is judgmental, everyone evaluates things on their own standards and morals. I believe that if there are two people that can have an entire life online without ever meeting that they do need help, (I'm talking about the extreme case where you married the person online and grew old online together, but never actually met.... 60 year relationship online exclusively type of deal) or at bare minimum to meet each other once. You believe I'm closed minded, and a jerk. Don't you think that's judgmental given that you don't know anything about me?

I never said anything about being a jerk ;)

Anyway, maybe you have to repeat yourself so many times because you're bad at communicating online. If you feel so misunderstood by so many people maybe it's you who has to change something. Maybe you feel high and above everyone else and you push it off as "There's something wrong with THEM not me." But if you want to be understood online, maybe try and not not sound rude and insulting if you don't want to.
Saying that someone needs professional help for something you don't know anything about is really stupid IMO. Maybe for YOU it would seem weird that a person could be satisfied online only, but for the person him/herself it would be fine. So who are you to judge? If the person is happy, then fuck off and let the person be happy, excuse me my bad choice of words.
And even so, what's the point with all this? I'm really sure that the OP's question was NOT regarding extreme relationships such as the one that you described. So why would you create all this fuss? It has no relevance. It's common sense that a relationship with no real component will, in most cases, crumble. I knew that. Everyone did. You'd have to be silly and stupid not to.
BUT, it's not impossible. Like everything. As I said, I could have waited an eternity for my love online, but I was lucky enough that I got the courage to go against what everyone said and go meet him.

And I'm pretty amazed that even as people try to open your eyes, you just get even more defensive. Be open and learn, and stop acting high and above.

I really wanna know. What was your point with all this? Did you even bother reading the whole thread before making your point? Love is a very hard thing to find and maintain, but not everyone is looking for it when it comes to online relationships.
Also considering all your other points about trust and relationships, I'd like to quote Merlin and say.... The same problems exist in the physical world too. Exactly the same problems. The only thing about Internet that's different is that it's easier to pretend to be someone else, yes... But when we take all the technologies to see and hear each other in consideration, that border becomes smaller and smaller too.

So please... Try to stop being so defensive and feel so misunderstood, and try to come with a real point. Right now I'm confused as to why you even replied to this thread in the first place(except to flex your "I can argue"-muscles).

[tempered_sugar]

A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online.



I agree with this to some degree yes.


As far as online relationships being only a friendship to me.... No. They cannot. Friendship requires trust, trust requires intimate knowledge of the other person.

Seems to go against your previous statement? If I have misunderstood then correct me by all means. I have said all the way through that these are MY opinions and that they are based on MY experiance and what others say. As they are my opinion I have not said at any stage they are totally right I have just looked at your opinion and disagreed with some points. Is that not what discussion is about? You seem think I am just digging at you personally, no I am talking about my opinion and disagreeing with you the same way you have with me. I accept our opinions are different, variety is the spice of life but please do not accuse me of being close minded. I will listen to someone elses opinion and discuss it, maybe change mine in the process and learn from their opinion. I won't just discard it cos I don't agree which to me is what close minded means in this case.



This line: "A relationship cannot be anything more than friendship if it is only online. " from my original post is EXACTLY as it says it is. It isn't a generalization, it is a fact.

No not a fact. This is based on your opinion and experiances which is fair enough but say so. Show me statistics to back this up and I will take my hat off to you.

I have said all the way through that these are MY opinions and that they are based on MY experiance and what others say. Yes they will be biased because I have had a successfull relationship that started online. And I felt more than frienship before we met, I had a massive crush on the guy. I agree falling in love online is odd but I do believe you can feel more than friendship. Some people do feel love with relationships online and if that makes em happy fair enough. They maybe in love with the idea of the person but love takes on many forms you can't make it black and white. I've just tried to exaplain here that you have one opinion but others will disagree you can't just say they are wrong on this perticular discussion. The same way I can't say you are completly wrong. Your opinions are based on your experiance and so are right for you.

As this is my opinion I have not said at any stage they are totally right I have just looked at your opinion and disagreed with areas of it. Is that not what discussion is about? You seem think I am just digging at you personally, no I am talking about my opinion and disagreeing with you the same way you have with me. I accept your opinions are different, variety is the spice of life but please do not accuse me of being close minded. I will listen to someone elses opinion and discuss it, maybe change mine in the process and learn from their opinion. I won't just discard it cos I don't agree which to me is what close minded means in this case.

I think this has gotten totally out of hand and this was not my intention. I stand by my opinions and you by yours I think thats the way it should be and I think we both need to take a step back from this perticular thread. I'm not asking you to back down and I'm not either just that you accept my opinion is different and we finally agree to disagree like you have said. This will be my final post on this thread and I stick to my original post. :)

[ghillieman]

not being rude but i think a online relationship is bullcrap and is for someone who has never had a girl in real life. no offense but its the truth :)

[Chloe]

not being rude but i think a online relationship is bullcrap and is for someone who has never had a girl in real life. no offense but its the truth :)

Thank you so very much for your insightful contribution to a serious thread. Forums & message boards need more articulate people like you... :rolleyes: :banghead:

[tempered_sugar]

*hands ghillieman a shovel to help dig him out of the ever increasing hole hes making*

[Master_ofpain]

BLAH most if this post is, long-winded and boring.
To tell the truth there are some people, myself included that find it easier to tell people my emotions over a electronic medium then in face to face conversations.

given long enough conversations on a intimate nature such as BD/SM, Cyber, mixed with general life and a almost daily communication will spawn feelings for both parties.

believe it or not but friendship is a emotional response, same with love, lust, jealousy. why friendship is so hard to place in the relationship scale is " can we be friends?" "sure" doesn't happen out loud. but you hang around with the person, and hang out, go for coffee.

i have been in many, many, many relationships on-line, ones that were scams, and ones that were generally emotional and REAL.

PS. i hate when people think what is posted here or on any forum should be read without emotion provided by the user who typed it, we are not trying to write a essay about the future of stock prices or something. words are given, especially in the English language( we have more similar and redundant words for things) just because they are used to convey emotions.

[Night-1990]

It can be confusing, if you meet someone online and talked by phone and webcam then you know you are getting someone honest, but if you don't then you won't know if they are actually a 45 year old sicko rather than a 21 year old hottie.

[yvonnewilcox]

An online relationship can work if both of you believe in the same thing. Meaning if you both are tired of the run around, game playing, aids scare and other bull that goes along with relationships.

Most of the people online that like to have online relationships are actually having several online relationships at one time.

Choose your online partner as you would a partner you would meet offline. Get to know him or her. Do a test. Log in under another name to see if they are serious about commitment or just want to build a friend's list of webcam buddies. When you do find the special person offer to pay for their trip to visit you or offer to visit them and see what the response will be.

[His_Einna]

Well, I've had three online romances, two D/s, and they've all gone pretty smoothly. The trouble comes when it's *only* online and you've never met the individual, 'cause there are certain things that you just can't share over the computer.

[Master_Emanon]

I have never had one, though i have had one friend who conversed with a girl online for over a year, then went to meet her a few times, then the 4th time he moved in with her, they are currently now married and have a daughter...

but i think it takes both to be serious about commitment, such as even if only online doesn't mean you can date some one offline, though some people ave to be realist on sexual needs that simple masturbation may not work if they havent met in a very long time