Expanding exposure forums, interested?

[Doctor Pervert]

I think the that as long as KT takes reasonable precautions and responds promptly on any abuse report then I think it should be fine. After all, what is the difference between uploading to KT, than to XTube, XHamster, ImageFap and others.

So I suggest the following:

• Board for self-exposure
  This is for people who just want to show themselves. Images must be of - and only of - the person posting
• Board for group or proxy exposure
  This is for people who post pictures containing themselves and others, or just others. Images that contain identifying marks or faces must have proof of consent of exposure.
• Board for Exposure Games
  This board is for people who want to play games where one or more of the participants are obligated to complete a forfeit/upload/etc. This is for playing games rather than just posting pictures for kicks
• Board for Exposure Discussion
  No pictures; just for chat.

With the following rules:

• Any image can be flagged as "This is me; I didn't consent" (or other such flag). The image is immediately removed from public view and put into a moderation queue.
• If a user has a number of images in the moderation queue each month (say 3/28 day period), they are banned from posting and must explain to a moderator how they got permission to post before having their privileges reinstated
• Images which had "I consent" messages in the picture (or in the picture set) are considered acceptable, and are suitable proof that the uploader had permission at the time of upload, and no further action is taken.
• If the withdrawal of consent is credible (that is not a troll trying to get pics taken down) then they are deleted and are not shown again

This is a well thought out response and covers most aspects pretty well however today we also have this message in the Exposure Sites Status thread which is pretty sobering and sheds a new light on this whole discussion.

Hi all. Just thought I’d let you know timedout.online has been taken down by my web host because of details and images being uploaded without the owners permission so you can thank the idiots out there that have wrecked yet another site! It’s taken months of development to get this site up, yet despite all of the warnings on the site people still upload things that they don’t have permission to. I might develop another similar site but at the moment I’m pretty gutted that months of work is down the pan!! If you have any questions, advice or words of encouragement! Please let me know at [email protected]

Seems that consent is a very poorly understood and too often ignored concept still.

There are two aspects with this, obtaining and displaying an acceptable form of consent to post photos, and then keeping track of whose photos are whose so takedown requests can be treated fairly.
I think the first has been well covered and a decent workable system already described however the second point has not been addressed and is much more problematic.

From experience here on KT one of the biggest issues is when people play the various kik based games and in the heat of the moment give consent for the photos they share there to be posted. Next morning you wake up, get cold feet and want these photos taken down.
The trouble is if several people have the photos already they are effectively "in the wild" and will keep popping up, if you told the exposers they could share them they have no reason not to, they don't know you changed your mind.
Then to complicate things timezone differences will often mean you can't contact some of them, panic sets in and demands to staff to take down photos are sent.
And this is where the problems really begin for the website, if this panic gets extreme and they get no response from staff the next step is to contact the host. If the hosting company gets X number of complaints in a month then BOOM, goodbye Kink Talk.

And is that what you really want?

Over the past 6 months almost every temp-style exposing site has been shut down, and the reason why is clear.
Consent is not being taken seriously if it is considered at all, time to grow up as a community and start acting responsibly.
Never post anything unless you have a PHOTO consent to go with it, and if you do consent understand exactly what that entails.

 

[crazyashell21]

This is a well thought out response and covers most aspects pretty well however today we also have this message in the Exposure Sites Status thread which is pretty sobering and sheds a new light on this whole discussion.



Seems that consent is a very poorly understood and too often ignored concept still.

There are two aspects with this, obtaining and displaying an acceptable form of consent to post photos, and then keeping track of whose photos are whose so takedown requests can be treated fairly.
I think the first has been well covered and a decent workable system already described however the second point has not been addressed and is much more problematic.

From experience here on KT one of the biggest issues is when people play the various kik based games and in the heat of the moment give consent for the photos they share there to be posted. Next morning you wake up, get cold feet and want these photos taken down.
The trouble is if several people have the photos already they are effectively "in the wild" and will keep popping up, if you told the exposers they could share them they have no reason not to, they don't know you changed your mind.
Then to complicate things timezone differences will often mean you can't contact some of them, panic sets in and demands to staff to take down photos are sent.
And this is where the problems really begin for the website, if this panic gets extreme and they get no response from staff the next step is to contact the host. If the hosting company gets X number of complaints in a month then BOOM, goodbye Kink Talk.

And is that what you really want?

Over the past 6 months almost every temp-style exposing site has been shut down, and the reason why is clear.
Consent is not being taken seriously if it is considered at all, time to grow up as a community and start acting responsibly.
Never post anything unless you have a PHOTO consent to go with it, and if you do consent understand exactly what that entails.

For the second point which is indeed problematic, and taking in consideration your experience on KT, I think we can mitigate the risk (or at least for the exposed KT members) by adding a tag of the username of the exposed member on the photo. The photo must also appear on the exposed member's profile page (under media tab for instance). They should be allowed to remove them as well. So if there is a change of mind they don't have to ask the admins.

I know this does not solve the issue if the exposed person is not a KT member but at least you get less messages from members.

 

[Nottzlad]

I've seen this topic come up a few times in the side bar and I've been pondering it quite a bit. I think one of the biggest problems we have, well those of us who expose guys, is this issue of consent. I'm always very meticulous in obtaining consent from guys I expose and try, as much as possible, to include the consent email as a picture in any album that I put up - I sometimes forget to do this and that's something I need to get better at doing to cover myself, to protect the site, and also to show that the guy being exposed is up for it. I also am very meticulous in explaining the consequences of exposure to guys I expose, e.g. that their pictures could be downloaded and exposed elsewhere, and I only ever expose guys who consent to being exposed and who realise the consequences of this.

In a perfect world, we'd all be following these kinds of rules and conducting ourselves in this way, again not saying that the way I expose guys is right either. However, we're not in a perfect world. Now I'm not really great with coding etc so I may be way off the mark with what's technically possible and if I am, please tell me so - I won't be offended, honest! I'm wondering whether it's possible to change the way that the 'media' section works on here to require verification before albums and pictures can be posted. So for self exposure, you would upload a picture of yourself naked and holding a sign with your username, the URL 'www.kinktalk.com', and the date. This wouldn't be shown on the site, but would be considered a verified photo, so then at a later date when you upload pictures of yourself, it's checked against the verification photo and if they match, the photos are approved. For exposure of others, I would suggest that the exposee has to take a picture of themselves holding a piece of paper saying 'I consent for [username] to expose my pictures on www.kinktalk.com' along with the date. This should be the first picture in the album and the album will only be approved and visible once that picture has been checked. If no such photo is included or the photo is unclear/photoshopped, then it's not approved and will not be visible on the site. The model is based on Fabguys.com, though they're less stringent with no allowing photos to be uploaded. However, it ensures that consent has been obtained and I think gets round the whole problem. Of course, it will take more time, but once the initial album is uploaded with the consent picture, there'll be no need for a mod to keep approving newly added photos and if you're going to create new forums, you're going to need more mods, so you're just reallocating resources to this new scheme.

As I say, what I put may not be technologically possible with the coding of this site and I don't know how clear what I've put is (I assume it's as clear as mud), but that would be my solution to this issue of consent - I refuse to use the word 'problem' in relation to consent because we should never view consent as a problem, but we should encourage more often.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

As I say, what I put may not be technologically possible with the coding of this site and I don't know how clear what I've put is (I assume it's as clear as mud), but that would be my solution to this issue of consent - I refuse to use the word 'problem' in relation to consent because we should never view consent as a problem, but we should encourage more often.

This is great summary, and has some good ideas too.
First up I agree consent is not a problem, but not having consent is. As you say in a perfect world everyone would be careful like you are obviously being and do the right thing, regrettably thats not the case.
For the most part I think the problematic cases are most often people who genuinely feel they have permission to expose but have either been fed photos by someone pretending to be the exposee (is that a word?) such as fakes and catfish or the exposee has changed their mind.
Something that hasn't come up so far though are the minority who obviously get a thrill from deliberately, non-consensually exposing people. This kind of malicious behavior has no place here and will not be tolerated. I would encourage anyone who knows of this happening to report the user to be dealt with as they are dragging the whole community down and destroying sites in the process.

As far as whats technically possible, Kink Talk uses an off the shelf system and the media galleries are a plug in. There is no actual coding done by staff so the changes you describe, while they would be very useful aren't possible.

 

[Nottzlad]

This is great summary, and has some good ideas too.
First up I agree consent is not a problem, but not having consent is. As you say in a perfect world everyone would be careful like you are obviously being and do the right thing, regrettably thats not the case.
For the most part I think the problematic cases are most often people who genuinely feel they have permission to expose but have either been fed photos by someone pretending to be the exposee (is that a word?) such as fakes and catfish or the exposee has changed their mind.
Something that hasn't come up so far though are the minority who obviously get a thrill from deliberately, non-consensually exposing people. This kind of malicious behavior has no place here and will not be tolerated. I would encourage anyone who knows of this happening to report the user to be dealt with as they are dragging the whole community down and destroying sites in the process.

As far as whats technically possible, Kink Talk uses an off the shelf system and the media galleries are a plug in. There is no actual coding done by staff so the changes you describe, while they would be very useful aren't possible.

Thanks and you're right in that there is a big problem with a lack of consent. I remember the debate a few weeks ago with a user who thought it was acceptable to post pics without permission - I can't remember the thread, but we both commented on it with much the same view. It's a shame that a minority spoil exposure, but unfortunately it's that minority that give exposure a bad name and that also have to be addressed going forward.

I think requiring a verification consent photo would certainly deal with the fakes problem in exposure same with catfishing. As for the exposee changing their mind, is it worth having some kind of 'arbitration forum' where anyone can post and only the mods and the person posting can see the thread? They'd simply post a verification photo proving it was them and ask for their photos to be deleted and then the album would be removed. Again I know it's a moderation heavy solution, but it could solve a few problems. I don't think exposee is a word, but, oddly, I rather enjoy the wordsmithery of these kinds of community, so we should put kinktalk on the map by creating the word exposee. It's a word in French, but who cares about that?

The verification photo would deal with the lack of consent as well for the minority of users who non-consensually expose people.

As a work around then, is it possible for moderators and yourself to remove albums? For exposure of other people, could you not simply remove albums which don't have that initial consent photo which I previously described? You could also include text on the 'create an album' page which states that any exposure album must have a consent photo as described and will be removed without one. Now that doesn't deal with the issue of how to detect whether someone is exposing themselves or pretending to do so using photos of someone else, but it does, coupled with the forum, remove some of the problems.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

As a work around then, is it possible for moderators and yourself to remove albums? For exposure of other people, could you not simply remove albums which don't have that initial consent photo which I previously described? You could also include text on the 'create an album' page which states that any exposure album must have a consent photo as described and will be removed without one. Now that doesn't deal with the issue of how to detect whether someone is exposing themselves or pretending to do so using photos of someone else, but it does, coupled with the forum, remove some of the problems.

We already take down albums but generally only ones that are reported or seem likely to be problematic. In this regard we may sometimes remove stuff that actually has consent but as we can't prove that we need to be over cautious rather than tempting trouble.
In general the current policy is that if someone is verified and posts photos of themselves we do not require further proof as they are considered to be in charge of their own albums.

As far as change of mind goes, in general we are aware of those participating in and advertising themselves to be exposed. If these members request take downs we will do so but no action will be taken against the poster as we assume they acting in good faith. In fact quite often albums reported have been taken down by the poster before staff can action the report which is the way it should work.
Currently suspensions and bans are only handed out where there is a clear case of unwanted exposure.

 

[Doctor Pervert]

So far there seems to be agreement that firmer rules are needed with regards to consent in posting exposure photos.
The following list of rules are being progressively implemented with all new exposure albums as of July 1 2019, additional rules will be added as they are discussed.
Remember these rules are to protect you, the people you expose AND Kink Talk.

1. Anyone exposed on Kink Talk must have an account either here or on the getDare forum, when exposed by a proxy person the user name must be included in the album description to allow checking for ongoing consent.
2. If the exposed person does not have a KT or gD account then an explicit dated consent photo MUST be included with every album posted.
3. Members posting themselves or consenting to be posted by others must first verify using the established process or provide a dated consent photo with every album posted. Users who wish to be exposed by others who verify can add a custom title "Verified OK to expose me". This will allow other to know they have explicit permission to expose without further checking. Check the verification thread for full details.
4. Albums not complying with rules 1 & 3 or rule 2, may be summarily deleted without notice. Users who breach these rules repeatedly will be warned and may have their accounts banned.

If you enjoy exposure games and want them to continue you need to support these changes so Kin Talk does not go the way of so many other sites.

 

[kaylessa]

Will those rules be enforced for existing albums as well?

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Will those rules be enforced for existing albums as well?

No. There are far too many albums to go back and check all of them.
Going forward I will start enacting these rules gradually, initially mostly issuing warning until people get used to how it works.

 

[_tails_]

This sounds like a really great idea. Maybe allowing only verified members to post would help? Especially the forfeit/games part looks very promising for me.

This is a really good idea for the forfeit games. It seems like the exposure sites that get taken down are because someone didn't give consent or the sites don't have enough gates to prevent unlawful sharing or revenge porn. What you probably need are white listed verified "exposers" who have permission to post photos to the exposure forum. I'm sure there's plenty of candidates on here who would be open to a second agreement, where anything they post they've said they have explicit permission to do so from the sub. Failure to abide by that results in an immediate ban, which would put the burden on the exposer to get consent from the sub or loser, which should be how this sort of thing works anyway.

I for one am missing getfaded, and would love to have something like that on here

 

[Doctor Pervert]

Exposure is no longer allowed on Kink Talk. I should have closed this thread off sooner, please see the sticky in the Show and Tell forum.

Exposing and exposure links not allowed.

Kink Talk no longer allows the posting of photos for the sole purpose of exposing someone. It doesn't matter if it is you or someone else, the issue has become too problematic for us to continually check for consent and so we have had to ban it entirely. Note this ban also includes posting...

www.kinktalk.com