Is there a true Master or Slave?

[Master_Emanon]

This was orginaly posted as an answer in this thread: What Makes A Sub Want to be A Sub
But as this was going in a totally different direction while still being an intersting discussion i did take the posts and made a new thread out of it
Merlin



It is not really “easy to tell” while a Dominate figure chooses to be dominate, for the fact of the matter most “masters” tend to be fake by definition, a true Dominate/Master, does not ponder and ponder on it saying I wish to be the dominate one, it is more or less a feeling, a feeling within us that says we must be in control, a true master or mistress finds no pleasure in allowing some one to have control over them.

But the same can be said about a “true” sub or slaves, most slaves or subs especially nowadays simply say they are to be desired or wanted, it is the same as the many woman who claim to be bisexual yet have no plans on being with a woman.

A true sub feels it in themselves to serve and be dominated, they do not sit around and wonder why it is just the way it is, and like the whole bisexual thing they do not say it to get attention they truly have the need to be dominated.

I see many even on here and many sites who claim to be Masters, tend to only be dominate in the bedroom this is not the simple mark of a Master, and others tend not to know the difference between “being submissive” and “being a submissive”, one merely shows the woman natural pleasing instinct while the other shows her desire to be controlled, to be taught by a true Master.

 

[Merlin]

I totally agree with you in one point ... I don't think you can chose to be a dominant or a submissive, as you cant chose to be gay, lesbian or straight... you just are.
Like chlo? said, subs don't want to be a sub they just are...

But i personally have always some problems with someone talking about "true" Masters or "true" Slaves, as basically for 90% who use this it just means "like me" and downgrades everyone not like that, and somehow implies that your way is the only right one.
And although i agree with your definition i personally think it is wrong to tell people that what they do is not right or real. As long as both are happy and no one is harmed why degrade it even if it is not what i would want.

 

[Master_Emanon]

I totally agree with you in one point ... I don't think you can chose to be a dominant or a submissive, as you cant chose to be gay, lesbian or straight... you just are.
Like chlo? said, subs don't want to be a sub they just are...

But i personally have always some problems with someone talking about "true" Masters or "true" Slaves, as basically for 90% who use this it just means "like me" and downgrades everyone not like that, and somehow implies that your way is the only right one.
And although i agree with your definition i personally think it is wrong to tell people that what they do is not right or real. As long as both are happy and no one is harmed why degrade it even if it is not what i would want.

It is not about my way, or if you look at my previous comments on here and getdare.com, i say there is no right or wrong way to be a Master, though by definition a 'true master" is not simply a dominate one in the bedroom. A Master exhibits his dominate authority outside of the bedroom, while the way he chooses (she in the case of a Mistress) is up to them, but one thing that is clearly stated, in the Masters Creed, and books on the Master?s Life, being a master is more then a bedroom fetish.

While Dominate males and females who are only so in bedroom and no where else, most themselves simply consider themselves to be dominate, but if their only eh practice in being a dominate is through sexual relations, with no training of subs, or trying to allow their subs to reach their mental capacity then they are not a Master or Mistress in any sense of the word.

To sum up the previous two sentences and I am sure that true masters and mistresses will agree, being a BDSM Master or Mistress is a lot more then simply being dominate in the bedroom, and those that call themselves master or mistress simply because they are dominate in the bedroom, are not true masters and mistresses.

 

[AlienMindsInc]

I'm going to take Merlin's side on this.

Even after your clarification, you are still simply defining what you believe is a Master based on your definition of "true," and it still degrades existing relationships.

While I do agree, dominance is a trait that is with someone their entire life, you can't be more wrong that someone must be dominant outside of the bedroom to be a Master. The reason is that there are times when dominance is inappropriate or unnecessary. A Master will know when these times are and will behave as is appropriate.

Also, your definition of a Master is my definition of a dominant. I can't really see where they coincide, other than the dominance. You can be dominant while not being a Master. Masters take their time to meticulously plan things, research, learn, better themselves, better their submissives, and teach others.

I'd also like to point out that books are a good thing, but they don't know everything. They're written by flawed humans, and other flawed humans read them. Nobody is perfect. In this case, the books are specific opinions of specific writers. The Master's Creed is nothing more than words, much like the boyscout motto. If you want to be a Master, be your own Master first. Evaluate what you read and add what makes sense and works with you to your repertoire. Don't just blindly listen to what other people say.

Of course, I also think that every Master should first start by getting a Master. Really good Masters know what works really well by understanding the submissive mindset. The best way to understand that is to become one yourself for a short period of time.

That's just what I think, take it as you will.

 

[Master_Emanon]

I'm going to take Merlin's side on this.

Even after your clarification, you are still simply defining what you believe is a Master based on your definition of "true," and it still degrades existing relationships.

While I do agree, dominance is a trait that is with someone their entire life, you can't be more wrong that someone must be dominant outside of the bedroom to be a Master. The reason is that there are times when dominance is inappropriate or unnecessary. A Master will know when these times are and will behave as is appropriate.

Also, your definition of a Master is my definition of a dominant. I can't really see where they coincide, other than the dominance. You can be dominant while not being a Master. Masters take their time to meticulously plan things, research, learn, better themselves, better their submissives, and teach others.

I'd also like to point out that books are a good thing, but they don't know everything. They're written by flawed humans, and other flawed humans read them. Nobody is perfect. In this case, the books are specific opinions of specific writers. The Master's Creed is nothing more than words, much like the boyscout motto. If you want to be a Master, be your own Master first. Evaluate what you read and add what makes sense and works with you to your repertoire. Don't just blindly listen to what other people say.

Of course, I also think that every Master should first start by getting a Master. Really good Masters know what works really well by understanding the submissive mindset. The best way to understand that is to become one yourself for a short period of time.

That's just what I think, take it as you will.

No where in my writing did I state any thing about the degradation of a relationship in accordance with the Master and slave for a true master, it is about a mutual respect between them both. As I said there is no right or wrong way to be a Master but when living the BDSM lifestyle it extends further then the bedroom. While yes bedroom fun is enjoyable but when living the lifestyle it does not stop once the sex is done.

I did not say they must be dominate at all times, simply speaking when in relation to their slaves, and Masters are still normal people, they do know when to have fun, enjoy themselves, yet also knows when to be domineering and in control.

While yes all Masters are dominate, being a master does not relate to always planning things out, research, learn etcetera, being a Master speaks of ones experience on the things they have done, knowledge of the lifestyle as well as the training of subs/slaves or sluts which ever they choose to obtain. On the other hand many who considers themselves simply dominate and not Masters in their own words will say that they may live certain aspects of the lifestyle, but does not live the lifestyle at all times.

I mentioned books in linking with terminology, while yes they can help the ?beginner? or one who seeks to obtain more knowledge in a given kink before practicing them. And the masters creed doesn?t tell you how to live your life, simply says to have respect for your self and knowledge, as well as the respecting of your sub/slave/slut (which ever they wish to train) As I have said and will continue to say there is no right or wrong way to be a Master, yet it should always revert back to a mutual respect between the Master or Mistress and those that they are either simply training, or attempting to collar.

While many Masters such as myself have been brought up around the life, or have had dominate training and such as being a ?student? to other Masters or Mistresses, some come into the lifestyle on their own and can be great Masters and Mistresses. Others such as some switches and Masters have been subs and then understood the submissive roles even more, being a switch or being a sub first only allows them to appreciate their subs even more as to what the sub has to do since they themselves have been in that role.

 

[SubMissChievous]

I've been hesitating between either starting a separate thread as I feel the thread has gone slightly off-topic but I will reply here instead as it seems that, in some ways, it is still somewhat in relation with the original question... Just seemed to me that it went from "Why a sub wants to be a sub?" to "What a sub needs to do to be considered a real sub?" So I'm gonna post my reply here since the question was raised seemingly by someone who is new to D/s. I see this happen so often on many forums where you get to be told what a "true" this or "true" that is and that the focus pretty much revolves around "doing" versus "being".

Here's my opinion and take it for what it's worth: There is no general guideline as to what a "true" sub, "true" Master, etc. People will engage into D/s activities or relationships for a million of different reasons and there's none that is better or truer than another. The only "true" guideline should be to be true to ourselves and not follow someone else's path. Everyone's journey is different.

A true sub feels it in themselves to serve and be dominated, they do not sit around and wonder why it is just the way it is?

As much as I agree with the ?feel it in themselves? part I don?t see how wondering why things are the way they are or even questioning ourselves can be a sign of being ?not true?. It?s human nature and I seriously doubt that anyone ever asked themselves any ?whys?. Like I said above, everyone?s journey is different. People are in constant evolution. There?s nothing wrong with wanting to understand why things are the way they are or why we feel a certain way. I would even go further and say that when you stop searching and say ?oh things are just the way they are? you are most likely not to progress anymore.

It is not about my way, or if you look at my previous comments on here and getdare.com, i say there is no right or wrong way to be a Master, though by definition a 'true master" is not simply a dominate one in the bedroom. A Master exhibits his dominate authority outside of the bedroom?

It may not be about your way but what you?re saying is still based on an opinion, be it yours or someone else?s. You mention the ?definition of a true Master?? if you look closely just around the internet you will find hundreds of different definitions for labels and titles. The ?in the bedroom? vs. ?outside the bedroom? is just one among many others. And since it?s only based on what someone does I find it?s kinda empty for a definition. I really don?t see how extending activities outside the bedroom would make someone truer. To be honest, anyone can do that if they want to. People do what they do according to what please them and what they need. If someone keeps his activities to the bedroom and calls himself a Master does it really take something away from you? No, of course not. And since people are in constant evolution, if a person does not do certain things does not mean they won?t tomorrow, next month or next year?

To sum up the previous two sentences and I am sure that true masters and mistresses will agree, being a BDSM Master or Mistress is a lot more then simply being dominate in the bedroom, and those that call themselves master or mistress simply because they are dominate in the bedroom, are not true masters and mistresses.

Not really? Like I said if you look around you?ll find tons of different definitions both for dominant and submissive labels and they can be drastically different sometimes. Because those are according to each individuals? perceptions and values. A couple months ago I replied on getDare to someone who was affirming that if you don?t identify yourself as Gorean or does not live the ?Gorean lifestyle? then you could not be a ?twue? master or a ?twue? kajira-slave thingy? You will find on forums like here people who will say if you?re online you?re not true, if you don?t do this with a live-in partner you?re not true, and so on? The only thing all these affirmations have in common is that they are simply opinions based on each person?s experiences, perceptions and values and nothing more than that. You will find some that apply to you and some that does not.

I'd also like to point out that books are a good thing, but they don't know everything. They're written by flawed humans, and other flawed humans read them. Nobody is perfect. In this case, the books are specific opinions of specific writers. The Master's Creed is nothing more than words, much like the boyscout motto. If you want to be a Master, be your own Master first. Evaluate what you read and add what makes sense and works with you to your repertoire. Don't just blindly listen to what other people say.

I agree with every word here

So my thoughts about all this in realtion to the original question is this: Why a sub wants to be a sub? I still think that it?s not really a matter of wanting but more of being. The time when one realizes it is different from one another though many realize it at puberty or during their teen ages while some others do later in life and yet, some other, earlier than that at childhood. So that?s the first step and from there each take their own paths

 

[Master_Emanon]

Response

Originally Posted by Chloe
As much as I agree with the ?feel it in themselves? part I don?t see how wondering why things are the way they are or even questioning ourselves can be a sign of being ?not true?. It?s human nature and I seriously doubt that anyone ever asked themselves any ?whys?. Like I said above, everyone?s journey is different. People are in constant evolution. There?s nothing wrong with wanting to understand why things are the way they are or why we feel a certain way. I would even go further and say that when you stop searching and say ?oh things are just the way they are? you are most likely not to progress anymore.

Was actually not speaking of questioning their choices I am sure we all do, I am referring to questioning why they feel they need to serve. For subs they have that innate feeling, a need to serve, was speaking of they do not for the most part spend their lives wondering and agonizing why they have that inner feeling to serve, most accept it rather young, you can usually tell by the time people are in their teens if they have submissive or dominate tendencies. You can tell whether they have that sort of pleasing quality or will be the one to take charge and tell others how they want it.

Originally Posted by Chloe
It may not be about your way but what you?re saying is still based on an opinion, be it yours or someone else?s. You mention the ?definition of a true Master?? if you look closely just around the internet you will find hundreds of different definitions for labels and titles. The ?in the bedroom? vs. ?outside the bedroom? is just one among many others. And since it?s only based on what someone does I find it?s kinda empty for a definition. I really don?t see how extending activities outside the bedroom would make someone truer. To be honest, anyone can do that if they want to. People do what they do according to what please them and what they need. If someone keeps his activities to the bedroom and calls himself a Master does it really take something away from you? No, of course not. And since people are in constant evolution, if a person does not do certain things does not mean they won?t tomorrow, next month or next year?

For that I am not speaking of titles but more or less the connection, a Master/slave relationship is built on trust, the slave trust their master, a sort of fearful respect and the Masters respect and appreciation for the slaves servitude. It is not built on just sex with out any inference of trust, appreciation or even respect. These things can not be gained just from sex, which is what I mean when I say a true Master is not simply in the bedroom, meaning only sex. If the Master and slave only have sex, never speak, never get to know one another, then what is the point of it if there is no mutual respect in some way then it will soon falter and cease to be. And no it will not take anything from me, simply stating a relationship built solely on sex, and no trust will not last, and one with no mutual respect will falter even sooner.

Originally Posted by Chloe
Not really? Like I said if you look around you?ll find tons of different definitions both for dominant and submissive labels and they can be drastically different sometimes. Because those are according to each individuals? perceptions and values. A couple months ago I replied on getDare to someone who was affirming that if you don?t identify yourself as Gorean or does not live the ?Gorean lifestyle? then you could not be a ?twue? master or a ?twue? kajira-slave thingy? You will find on forums like here people who will say if you?re online you?re not true, if you don?t do this with a live-in partner you?re not true, and so on? The only thing all these affirmations have in common is that they are simply opinions based on each person?s experiences, perceptions and values and nothing more than that. You will find some that apply to you and some that does not.

While I am not in the Gorean lifestyle, I tend to see the Kajira equivocal to a bdsm slave, they usually have little or no limits, and tend to think of them selves as beneath or less then value then their Master. While in that instance in the different lifestyle Gorean or just BDSM they each are Masters, but even in Gorean lifestyles the relationships between both parties are built on some type of trust. And I know several Masters who have simply online, but even in that relationship it takes a bit of trust, of course with online masters they trust their subs or slave which ever they wish to pursue, they expect of them respect, to do certain task that the sub/slave is given, and appreciates them for that. They in return respect their Master for their appreciation of them, the respect and civil ways they speak to them (unless they enjoy degradation then of course the civil speech is not usually there) and show their appreciate by doing the task that their Master has set forth, be it a online or real time/real world relationship there is still the respect and trust there.

 

[sexygingerslave]

My thoughts

I agree with Master Emanon.
Slaves and Masters exist without being completely slaves or completely Masters.
Just as there ARE different levels of being Bi.

I have insight into both bisexuality and submissive behavior
I find women attractive physically ans sexually, just as I find men attractive, but I tend to fall to men more because they are natually dominating more of the time and I am a true slave.
In all things, I need to be dominated. I desire to serve a Master loyally and without restraint, and in turn be cared for and guided by a true Master.
-slave named Lila

 

[Anjelen]

Since mine is the considerable pleausure of beeing SexyGingerSlave's Master, i feel it prudent i give my view on this, here.

I myself take no small manner of (if humorous) pride in the fact that even as young as five years old i stole the barbies of the girl next door to be tied up in interresting ways in secret spots in my room... I can provide the girl's email adress if you want
As i started my sexual exploration young - if not my D/s lifesytle - i realised early on i liked to be the one in charge; the one calling the shots, to say the least.
I have always enjoyed mindgames, mindgames to the point of borderline humilliation - when i started my actual training to masterdom; five years of submission at the hands of masters and mistresses, i thought of myself first as a switch, but realised graduately that even as a submissive i was topping from the bottom without so much as a thought - in fact at least two of my former dom(me)'s have been ... converted, so to speak.
No lack of respect for them - they were great to me, and taught me a lot about myself - but all i learned in the end from those five years spent on my knees was that i, myself, will take no shame in saying vainly, i am a true Master.

That said, in my experience, true submissives, and true dominants as well, are rare, scarcer than hen's teeth - in the fifteen years i've been in the lifestyle now i've only met three, at most four people who live up to my considerably arrogant standards of 'true' submission, and even less who live up to my standards of true dominance.

I've had the privilege of beeing trained by only one such dominants - and i've had the privilege of training two of these true submissives.

And yes - SexyGingerSlave - or Puppy, as i've named her, is one of these true slaves.

 

[tempered_sugar]

Personally I hate this term!! I know others would like to consider themselves a "true Master/slave" but I think it's a load of well...poop. There are no guidlines as to what a M/s should be and no one fits into the same box. For any one Master their slave may be perfect for them so technically I guess everyone is the perfect M/s if their relationship works and everyone is happy

Thinking simple? Yes I am! I have given up trying to make theory out of something , I just enjoy what I do

 

[sum1]

[
I see many even on here and many sites who claim to be Masters, tend to only be dominate in the bedroom this is not the simple mark of a Master

I really don't see why some people, take things so seriously. What the hell is the problem with if someone wants to be dominant in the bedroom but not else where. Why is their enjoyment of bdsm any less valid, any less vital to their nature than those who go around rawing going i am master do as i say all the time and generally thinking that calling themselves a dominant (and doing mid sentence capitalizations of that word s if it were a proper noun because they have some idea that it is a sign or respect or superiority somehow) is a throw away the normal social etiquettes and be rude obnoxious and generally annoying.

 

[SubMissChievous]

That said, in my experience, true submissives, and true dominants as well, are rare, scarcer than hen's teeth - in the fifteen years i've been in the lifestyle now i've only met three, at most four people who live up to my considerably arrogant standards of 'true' submission, and even less who live up to my standards of true dominance.

See, that’s what I meant when I said a couple weeks ago that the only “true way” in my opinion should be to be true to ourselves. I’m pretty sure everyone have standards and ideals for themselves. That’s why I see no point in categorizing people because what is true to one person may very well mean absolutely nothing to another. That’s also why I don’t need to claim I’m a true this or that: since I have my own ideals and standard I have no need or desire to convince anyone else.

I do, in fact, have my own idea of what “true submission” is. And guess what? I know no one, not even myself, who lives up to it. At least not completely. But yet that doesn’t mean I’m gonna go and tell someone “Oh you’re not a real slave” or “You’re a fake because you’re not like this and don’t do that”.

So, of course, I think it’s fine if anyone have their own standards and I believe everyone has them some way. Those are different to each individuals because each have their own needs and desires. And I sincerely think that there’s not one way that is better than another as long as the people involved together respect and enjoy themselves, really.

…a Master/slave relationship is built on trust, the slave trust their master, a sort of fearful respect and the Masters respect and appreciation for the slaves servitude.

The fearful stuff… not for me, nope… If I were to fear my Master that would mean the trust is not there anymore. I have no reason to fear someone I trust.

For any one Master their slave may be perfect for them so technically I guess everyone is the perfect M/s if their relationship works and everyone is happy

I agree completely with this. If two persons have met their match, are on the same page are happy and all… Then that is true… and nice!

Oh and I really don’t care if people do it only in the bedroom or not or how they like to call themselves. I have seen enough debates about “true slaves” and the likes to know that everyone have their own ideas about it. And that’s okay. Funnily enough, I’ve seen also, not as often, topics and comments or articles about how “wrong” it is to live D/s outside the bedroom. In fact, some of these people can be just as fanatical about their positions as those who claim to be “twue lifestylers”. So in the end, whatever you do, you’ll never be true according to someone else’s standards for whatever reason…

 

[Anjelen]

I do, in fact, have my own idea of what “true submission” is. And guess what? I know no one, not even myself, who lives up to it. At least not completely. But yet that doesn’t mean I’m gonna go and tell someone “Oh you’re not a real slave” or “You’re a fake because you’re not like this and don’t do that”.

My appologies for rending your post in twain, m'lady - but it's right up there for people to read and i just needed this bit. This - particularly in responce to my own arrogance - was exactly the answer i have been hoping for.
Bravo!

 

[MasterKazugami]

For me, there is no such thing as a true master or a true slave. On this web based game I used to go on, there was a girl by the name of Lady Jhaernyl. At least one of the males there said that she was a true mistress, in all fairness, I didn't find her a true mistress and I found her quite a bitch. Just logged back on there to take this quote from her profile:

i am the acting matron of Qu'allar Auvrea'mitore. i do not like this introductions. so i will keep it short. i am a high priestess to lolth and veiw all
males inferior to me. i veiw alot of people inferior to me some i may not name but i shall prove that Qu'allar Auvrea'motire shall reign supreme

That was from her profile, another thing about her is her arrogance. When spoken to, even if you know shes there she will ignore you. She said hello to me two or three times then completely blanks you out. Its not just me she'd do it to, she'd do it to anybody. This and the fact that she takes slaves is supposed to make her a true mistress?

Personally stuff like that, then makes it feel that all other dom's are meant to be inferior to this person. No dom or slave are true masters or slaves though due to the fact theres a sub for every dom and vice versa, then theres always going to be two people who are meant to be together. What makes me happy, and makes me enjoy being a dom is when I get a sub who enjoys having me as their master. That is what truely makes me happy, to hear my sub(s) honestly say they enjoy being my pet.

 

[Kitten]

Well...

I do make a difference between guys that think a sex slave is about picking a girl and making her cam, so they can have a nice wank, and let that be it.
I don't think they are true Doms, to say the least.

And there are those girls that think that being submissive is all the new rage and then call themselves submissive, 'cause it's cool.
And don't get what it's about at all ._.
I don't think they're true subs either.

 

[MasterKazugami]

I do make a difference between guys that think a sex slave is about picking a girl and making her cam, so they can have a nice wank, and let that be it.
I don't think they are true Doms, to say the least.

And there are those girls that think that being submissive is all the new rage and then call themselves submissive, 'cause it's cool.
And don't get what it's about at all ._.
I don't think they're true subs either.

I just call them followers or sheep, their trying to call themself a lifestyle that their not just so they can get off. If their that desperate to masturbate, someone donate them some porn.

 

[Master_Tal]

My Not so Humble Opinion

I am new to this Forum, so let me introduce myself first. I have been in this lifestyle for 23 years, my submissive now is my lovely wife. I have run the gambit of Dom/sub play to 24/7 M/s relationship.
I have read through this posting and find myself at odds on how to respond.
So I will just lay out the few things I have learned over the years that have helped me keep it in context.

1. First and for most, the biggest truth of any D/s relationship, The Dom/Master has no power, except that which is given to him by his sub/slave.
If you say you’re a "true Master" and don’t have a submissive, your Master of Nothing, you may be a Dominant personality but you are not a Master.

2. Secondly, The Biggest Lie in the D/s community. "everyone fits the same mold". We are all different, we all have different tastes, kinks, likes and dis-likes. There is no mold for Dom’s or sub missive’s. What is right for you and your significant other is right period and no Dom on his high horse has the right to say any different.

3. Lastly yes there are those born with a Dominant\ submissive personality, but it take years of caring and loving nurture on both sides of the spectrum to truly understand the depths of pleasure and gratification that can be obtained if both parties in a D/s relationship grow together.


Now that’s my, Not so humble opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

Master_Tal

 

[tempered_sugar]

I am new to this Forum, so let me introduce myself first. I have been in this lifestyle for 23 years, my submissive now is my lovely wife. I have run the gambit of Dom/sub play to 24/7 M/s relationship.
I have read through this posting and find myself at odds on how to respond.
So I will just lay out the few things I have learned over the years that have helped me keep it in context.

1. First and for most, the biggest truth of any D/s relationship, The Dom/Master has no power, except that which is given to him by his sub/slave.
If you say you’re a "true Master" and don’t have a submissive, your Master of Nothing, you may be a Dominant personality but you are not a Master.

2. Secondly, The Biggest Lie in the D/s community. "everyone fits the same mold". We are all different, we all have different tastes, kinks, likes and dis-likes. There is no mold for Dom’s or sub missive’s. What is right for you and your significant other is right period and no Dom on his high horse has the right to say any different.

3. Lastly yes there are those born with a Dominant\ submissive personality, but it take years of caring and loving nurture on both sides of the spectrum to truly understand the depths of pleasure and gratification that can be obtained if both parties in a D/s relationship grow together.


Now that’s my, Not so humble opinion. Take it for what it's worth.

Master_Tal

I like that! I agree with 99% of what you say and it is nice to see someone else with some experience have a balanced view of D/s. You can stay

 

[jack]

It's part of our genetic make up, I believe. There are those that give and those that take. Obviously there are people who do both, I think it is better to enjoy the magic rather than question it